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MelancholyWookie

I was trying to find the post on the sub.


rankasi

Linked a video of Israeli ‘settlers’ running into the homes of Palestinians while they attended the funeral of a murdered journalist. The comment above mine got deleted due to comparing the actions of Israel to the Nazi’s, which is weird because they’ve been proven to do the exact same thing. I reiterated that statement with the video link, now banned by the mod who takes offence because apparently you can’t make very real comparisons with Israeli’s who also happen to be Jews. Embarrassing.


doxamark

Happened to me too because I said that the public perception of anti semitism in the party was far beyond what was real. Considering the public thought 30% of the members were antisemitic and it was less than 0.3%


InstantIdealism

Think it’s generally accepted that you shouldn’t use the term Nazis to describe actions of Jewish people because lots of Jews find that antisemitic. Think the advice is to use “fascist” instead. I know you won’t mean it in that way but I guess it’s generally better to try and make a point in a way that is more articulate and less offensive if possible.


PM_ME_WEIRD_THOUGHTS

Hello, I'm Jewish. Quick 2 cents. Just because a comparison is deeply unpleasant, doesn't make it anti-Semitic. Maybe if Israelis don't want to be compared to Nazis, they should stop acting like them.


InstantIdealism

For sure - I’ve been around socialist groups enough to meet lots of brilliant anti Zionist Jewish people; and have met left wing Jews who like yourself would hate all this stuff; but there are also plenty of left wing Jewish people (and non left wing Jewish people) who do find this stuff deeply upsetting, offensive and spurs call it antisemitic, not least because of the IHRA definition. Also your comment groups all Israelis together and suggests all Israelis act like Nazis. As I’m sure anyone on the left recognises, there are many different people within cohorts as large as an entire country, and not all Israelis should be defined by the actions of a few or of a government.


chrisjd

You can't be left wing and support an apartheid state that murders journalists (and women and children) in cold blood. I couldn't give a fuck about offending someone by calling Israel Nazi when they act like Nazis, especially if they tried to use IHRA as a shield to defend a shitty ethno-state.


rankasi

Understood mate, but I think it should be stated that many Anti Zionist Jews don’t find it anti Semitic at all, because it isn’t, and they also compare Israel’s actions to Nazi’s. I’m not comparing Jews to Nazi’s, I’m comparing the actions of the Israeli state, the Israeli people, and there benefactors to the Nazi’s.


spacetethers

>I’m comparing the actions of the Israeli state, the Israeli people, and there benefactors to the Nazi’s< Mate, I'm sorry to tell you, but I think this is an antisemetic line of thinking. In fact, comparing the Israeli state, or its policies with the Nazis is defined as anti-semitism by the IHRA. You can criticise Israel without doing this is the point.


Spready_Unsettling

You're gonna have to explain to me why it is antisemitic. *If* the actions of Israel mirror those of Nazi Germany, *why* would it be antisemitic to make that comparison. This is a thought experiment, so you gotta explain the mechanism without concerns for this current situation.


spacetethers

The reason was this line of thinking is anti-semitic is as follows. There is not and has never been a plan or policy by the Israeli state to exterminate the Palestinian people. Israeli actions that have resulted in the terrible things we see in the news are stated to be the result of security concerns, and defence against terrorism. They are not the policies and things that the Nazi Third Reich did. Criticism of Israeli policies is fair and justified, but comparing them to Nazis is not fair. Many nations have acted this way towards a perceived security or terrorism threat, and yet it is rare to compare them to the Nazis. Thus, if Israel is compared to the Nazis for doing these things against the Palestinians, it is treating Israel differently and uniquely worse. Thus, anti-semitic charges start to rear their heads. In addition, I would argue that comparing Israel's actions and policies to the Holocaust diminishes that horrible event. Hopefully this helps explain why it is thought that comparing Israel to the Nazis is seen as anti-semitic.


Adzm00

>Hopefully this helps explain why it is thought that comparing Israel to the Nazis is **seen** as anti-semitic. But it isn't ACTUALLY antisemitic. Its just another weaponisation of the term to shirk accountability.


Spready_Unsettling

>There is not and has never been a plan or policy by the Israeli state to exterminate the Palestinian people. >Israeli actions that have resulted in the terrible things we see in the news are stated to be the result of security concerns, and defence against terrorism. They are not the policies and things that the Nazi Third Reich did. Criticism of Israeli policies is fair and justified, but comparing them to Nazis is not fair. I asked you to make this point in the hypothetical situation where it was, in fact, the same things they did. The rest of your comment completely ignores the premise of my question, so I guess I'll have to as well. >Many nations have acted this way towards a perceived security or terrorism threat, and yet it is rare to compare them to the Nazis. Simply not true at all. China is currently being compared to Nazi Germany for treating Uighurs in a somewhat similar way. Besides, *very* few nations have treated an occupied ethnic group like this. You can't just claim that "many nations do this". >Thus, if Israel is compared to the Nazis for doing these things against the Palestinians, it is treating Israel differently and uniquely worse. Again, what Israel is doing is not comparable to what other nations are doing, and the nations that *are* doing shit like this are routinely criticized. >I would argue that comparing Israel's actions and policies to the Holocaust diminishes that horrible event. You're the first to mention the holocaust, but this actually leads into a much bigger point: Nazi Germany started out treating Jews (and a few million other people) *exactly* like Israel is treating Palestinians. They saw them as a security threat, exactly like Israel sees Palestinians as a terror threat. No one is saying we're in the Final Solution stages (which was implemented secretively, during a war, and late into complete totalitarian fascism) of this genocide. Everyone with even a basic level of historic understanding is commenting on how similar Israel's actions is with those of early Nazi Germany. You can insist on missing the point all you want, but don't expect anyone to take your accusations seriously if you won't even argue on the same basis as your opponents.


spacetethers

Your argument seems to be suggesting that Israel is acting like say, 1936 Nazi Germany, so its fine to compare the state to the Third Reich. This seems disengenuis to me. When someone is comparing some to the Nazis most people will think you are referring to the Holocaust, not earlier. Is this really your argument, or am I misunderstanding you?


Spready_Unsettling

What's disingenuous is refusing to call out oppressive and genocidal behavior unless it fits the mould of the most extreme genocide in history.


spacetethers

The point in the OP was about whether or not it is anti-semetic to compare Israel's policies and actions to the Nazis. You've moved the goalposts.


lithobolos

Israel doesn't represent Jewish people. The idea they do is anti-Semitic itself.


InstantIdealism

I didn’t say that?


lithobolos

My POV just so you understand where I'm coming from. Other Dude: I think it's good to compare Israeli crimes to some Nazi crimes. You: It's not good to compare Jewish crimes to Nazi crimes, just use fascism to describe it. To me that's equating Israeli actions with the actions of Jews rather than have Israel be just another colonial and oppressive state


Velocity1312

In the specific instance of the funeral procession being attacked by armed police tho, there aren't really words outside of Nazi. Literally assaulting people at a funeral procession.


InstantIdealism

Assaulting a funeral is a flagrant human right abuse, it’s fucking despicable. But human beings can be ducking despicable. And funerals have long been targets for attacks (however morally abhorrent we may find that). The ulster unionists did it to the IRA, the French revolutionaries did it in 1832 (https://amp.theguardian.com/theguardian/from-the-archive-blog/2020/may/20/insurrection-in-paris-new-revolution-june-1832), and in Myanmar; there are Buddhists killing and attacking Muslims at funerals (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-myanmar-unrest-idUSKBN0F90VZ20140704) I think when I speak with my lefty Jewish friends about this (to whom I tend to defer to on such matters), their general position is “the Israeli government fucking sucks. It’s fascist and awful. But we find the word nazi triggering so we don’t see why it’s hard not to use that in relation to us, please”.


[deleted]

Reddit mods are something else. What a spineless moron


rekuled

God TerriblePastry is one of the absolute worst on that sub for throwing out contastan accusations of antisemitism and banning/deleting comments with no review.


cornishwildman76

The holocaust, the ideological and systematic state-sponsored persecution and mass murder of the Jews, Romani people, Jehovah's Witnesses, the intellectually disabled, dissidents and homosexuals. Genocide, the deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race. Do the above descriptions fit with what is happening with the Palestinian people?


InstantIdealism

Don’t forget the socialists, artists, polish people and Russians!


Bou_Czang

Well done for adding the JWs in. I grew up one and nobody ever knew.


cornishwildman76

I grew up as one to! I wanted to add as many to the list as possible to show that the holocaust isn't just a Jewish things, others suffered it as well.


Bou_Czang

Woohoo brother from another mother! That's awesome. I got disfellowshipped from LabourUK last week, by that exact same mod. I doubt they'd see the irony of banning someone of our background for the reasons they did. I tried reasoning with them for my own ban but they are power mad. That sub isn't worth it. I found Labour to be as culty as the cult we came from.


cornishwildman76

Ha ha love it brother from another mother! I drifted away years ago, but only in the last 3/4 years have I really started to wake up to the fact I was raised in a cult. Have had to have therapy for it and the ptsd it left me with. I think any ideology has the potential to turn into a cult. If people within a movement refuse to accept outside criticism or ignore logic, then it starts to turn culty.


rankasi

State sponsored prosecution ✅ Mass Murder against Palestinians ✅ Genocide ✅ By golly, what do we have here😳


cornishwildman76

Exactly. We don't need top say anything. Hold up the actions of a government or a people to the measure of these definitions. If the shoe fits....


slotpoker888

The main problem has been Israel and AIPAC smearing people, calling them anti semitic if they call out the Israeli governments actions on the Palestinians, say they support BDS, etc, here's a video of Michael Brookes, a jew, who has sadly passed away, defending US Rep Ilhan Omar and Jeremy Corbyn. [Michael Brookes on Israel TV](https://youtu.be/D-60lcAWJlg)


mitchanium

Pretty damning to think that a Jewish mod thinks they can be a gatekeeper for basically 'their version' of the religion. Tit


estianna

Made me lmao irl the last part was so funny


FastnBulbous81

Centrists are tying themselves in knots on Israel. 🍿


Infamous_Ad8606

“You really gunna say that to a Jew” you mean Jewish person


Necessary-Crazy-4962

If you’re not banned from subreddits you’re a nazi